A forum member has been quoted as saying just how easily attainable it is to reach the high end in terms of sound quality but at the same time we are asked to pay 10s of thousands for the privilege, do we really need to spend bucket loads on stands, cables, tweaks, cd players to reach the peak and reach our audio nirvana?

It depends on personal circumstances. What you like is just as subjective as wine or fast cars. A great sound can be achieved by spending wisely, careful selection of components and setting them up properly. To use a motoring analogy, if you have never driven a Ferrari then a Golf GTi may well feel fast enough. Aspiration is what keeps high end companies (in all fields) in business. Audio nirvana is not the preserve of the mega rich.

A Golf compared to Ferrari are easily measurable we have figures that prove the performance advantages are real, we don't have that with HiFi we just have ears and prices.

I like your point about careful selection as these are the basic ingredients to start from.

My point was about personal perception.

Take a bottle of wine. I love big, bold , brassy Oz Cabernet. I have been lucky enough to have consumed some very well known and supposed top end French Cabernets. These wines are considered the best wines in the world according to wine experts. Very few float my boat. They don't give me the flavour I am looking for but cost many times the price.

High end gear is perceived as better because it is expensive and somebody else says it is what we should all want. But if you can find something you like and enjoy, why bother spending a fortune on gear which is considered high end.
Unless of course you hear something you like and aspire to achieving that sound.

To answer the question above - surprisingly little, provided someone who knows his stuff decides you should have superior sound without having to pay through your nose.

By this, I mean that somebody should really pay attention, be thorough and not be afraid to look the beast in the eye, but all that will be worthless unless the person buying it cannot do the same.

Consider the concepts involved.

High End is always expensive. By extrapolation, if it ain't expensive, it ain't High End. Nobody will actually utter that, but that's what you are told by the ads and, unfortunately, some dealers.

High End is big, massive, a good High End amp will weigh in at least 60 lbs. While there is some justification for this technically, assuming a lot of power, but in real life, NOBODY, most certainly not the dealers who just tried to flog you a 100 lbs mammoth amp, will tell you that is that's so, how come he charges to goddamn much for his tube gear, which rarely manages 50 WPC, let alone the kiloWatts some solid state models do.

High End lives not in cases, but in sculptured madness these days, typical case price is well over 500 quid. They turn you into an aluminium reseller in the end. And no, you do not have the option of a classic pressed steel case along with a discount, because you went in to buy sound, not metalwork.

But all that has absolutely nothing to do with how they sound, and in my view, most of the High End in terms of price and public perception is, at the very best, worth about 10% of its price. Most, not all. And I kid you not!

Lastly, you have your own perception. Like it or not, but you have already been brainwashed, the question is only to what extent. If you have managed to keep your sanity, and if they try people can do that, then you will reject the packaging and go for the essence.

To get there, you first of all need to know what you are looking for, you have to have some frame of reference, and for that to happen, you need solid experience and an open mind. You do not need a big, deep wallet.

Gifted people come in all sorts of packages. Some are economically savvy and play by the rules, others are more realistic and think in real world numbers. As an example, think of England, narrow down to Somerset, zoom in on Taunton. That's where a very, but VERY wise man lives, and goes by the name of Lindley-Hood. And he's been around longer than even me, which was great for me, because I learnt much from that man. Above all, I learnt to be able to close my eyes, empty my mind and get down to the music itself. In audio, no greater gift is possible.

Anyway, that man has produced several projects and most of them sound excellent, some are exceptional, and one or two downright outstanding. Your first sure fire way to sound no Hign End device would be ashamed of having is to build some of those projects, either by yourself, or with the help of a friend versed in matters electronic. I menation this because it's easily the most cost effective use of your money.

The next possibility is to buy a known good unit and tune it up. You can play that game with a very low profile, or you can hog it, your choice. You can ask here, but in any case, I would advise you Google around, there are many DIY and tuning sites. with invaluable information.

Following this, you can go up half a step, by doing as described in the above paragraph, but using as a base a well chose vintage device. With them, half of your work is already done, because 30 years ago, the manufacturers were much more thorough at the very start. This requires a good knowledge of both electronics and vintage gear.

Or you can simply go by the price and remortgage the house.

I'm pleasantly surprised by just how good a sound you can get today from the likes of CA , NAD for not a great deal of money.

I question I've thought about is do you really need the ultra high end in a modern sized room and house? Most if not all high end gear tends to be high powered and demanding big speakers, these type of products always cost, but if you live in a small house with neighbours what are the changes you'll ever need that kind of system?

I think that if for example you listen near field in a small room it is much more easier to put together a really good sound for not a great deal, for about 1000euros for example you can get something amazing sounding.

Adam, I'd just love to be amazed by a 1.000 euro system, but unfortunately, I haven't been so far. Decent sounding - yes, it is possible, but it takes a lot to amaze me. Even if you buy vintage, after refreshing, it will cost more. But your point is not lost on me, it's true you don't need five figure systems for an honestly good sound.

At what price points do you think diminishing returns really starts to bite hard?

There's a couple of chicken and egg situations going on in high-end. The first is the notion that big, expensive products are good simply because they are big and expensive. If the system sounds poor, it's because the listener haven't spent enough or bought large enough equipment. I've heard some exceptionally good products that sound better than bigger counterparts, but it doesn't matter.

American hi-fi buffs are particularly bad for this. It's why big monobloks in between the speakers are so popular there; it's conspicuous spending, because they are so visible.

The other is making loudspeakers so insensitive and difficult to drive that they demand big amplifiers to drive them. This also works if you have a mindset that thinks bigger is better.

When I used to do the CES, you'd have to set up the biggest equipment you could. If you put up a smaller system, no matter how good it sounded, the audiophiles would walk past laughing.