is the old hifi ,better hifi?

Subject: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Tue May 17, 2011 3:50 pm

i have read some of the system reviews here, and i got to thinking. i read dvv"s review of his kit. it was well written and evenhanded,imo. he mentioned some gear from yesteryear! it rhymes! Smile

is the old stuff better? lots of people think it is, why?.....am i missing out? theres some cheap kit down here in e sussex, from bygone days, i would have thought that modern production methods, the old stuff wouldnt have got a look in! is it an occult thing? magic mists and gurguling ponds! affraid

or did the old makers have more refined ears?

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Tue May 17, 2011 4:32 pm

No, same then as now, some good, some average, some crap. Most of the older crap has died, most of the average hit the skip, so you are left with the the good and idiosyncratic. Older Sansui, Marantz, Quad etc.

Join date: 2009-09-07 Trade: No Posts: 1337

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Things shift and different things get importance, in the 1980 it was source first, now it is speakers firsts and more emphasize on cables, but in a shoot out I bet it all still sounds vaguely similar old to new.

Join date: 2011-01-18 Trade: No Posts: 15

poor memories, most legacy hifi deserves to be on the scrap heap, some people just remember the few that stood out but these were few and far between, I'd take a newer modern product that I know will last, that is safe, that doesn't need repairing any time over some piece of junk from the 1970s.

Join date: 2010-05-22 Trade: No Posts: 1247 Age: 30

colin wrote:

No, same then as now, some good, some average, some crap. Most of the older crap has died, most of the average hit the skip, so you are left with the the good and idiosyncratic. Older Sansui, Marantz, Quad etc.

I agree the good has filtered through the crap and is still doing it's rounds.

Join date: 2009-09-04 Trade: No Posts: 657

what % would you say that was?

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Tue May 17, 2011 9:55 pm

Sonicman wrote:

what % would you say that was?

Hard to say, Sonicman. Practically all those companies of yesteryear, many of which are gone now, had this or that series which stood out, and within each such series, a model or two which are remembered.

For example, I hunted some Marantz models down, but they are all from a series which is considered to be their best ever in terms of classic series models, not some special editions or some such. This would be the series 1978-1980. This is the last series which was all "Designed in the U.S.A., manufactured in Japan". When they later on became a completely Japanese company, they just sunk. They were no different from anyobody else, except when, in a deal with Sony, by which Sony obtained the rights to Philips' patents and technology regarding the CD medium, Marantz was turned over, lock, stock and barrel, to Philips. Sony never knew what to do with them anyway. Philips breathed life into that company with their CD models, as we know from the 90ies, when Marantz took lead in the field. But, that's another story.

While I simply adore the sound of Marantz power amps based on the P700 platform designed in the USA, I must in all fairness add that it has its quirks. For example, it has no classic bias adjustment scheme, using an internal pot, rather it has two levels of bias set automatically, according to the amount of heat sink heating up. As it heats up, the bias is reduced, as per the assumption that more power will logically keep the amp working harder, so less bias is needed. This is done by using two heat sensors in a rather ellegantly simple circuit.

Too bad it doesn't work all that well. It does work, to be sure, but it has quite a few misses beside the hits. This doesn't hurt the sound, but it's still just a so-so job overall.

As I keep repeating, while you might like what you hear from some of the vintage stuff, always remember that you are hearing around 50% of the quality they are truly capable of, and to get it all, you do have to overhaul them thoroughly. This means dismantling it, cleaning up or replacing switched and pots, and without further ado, replacing squarely ALL electrolytic capacitors, because they are the first to go.

So, do be careful with choosing it, make sure you have somebody capable of serious and tedious restauration work. It's quite a feat, rstoring them, but the, the reward is just as great. In those days, nobody did "analytical midrange", "sweet treble" and the rest of that crap, in those days they wanted a coherent sound stage from top to bottom, evenly delivered. And THAT'S what makes some of them better than most of the modern production.

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Wed May 18, 2011 12:55 pm

I must admit vintage hifi doesn't do much for me, I prefer some thing new, the same with cars, some go for old vintage cars and love them to bits, but I'd go for a new car because I feel its safer, better built, and more reliable.

The same goes for HiFi older vintage gear holds very little appeal, I like something new and modern looking, sound wise I don't really know I don't get to hear much vintage stuff, but I would say more modern gear is more about transparency and detail, where older gear may be softer and warmer in tone.

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Wed May 18, 2011 5:18 pm

I, given the money and space would quite happily run a vintage system alongside a modern one.
Garrard 401, SME arm, Refurbished Quad 's (II's) and ESL's. Not sure what pre amp though. Probably a croft modern pre built into a old quad case.

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Wed May 18, 2011 8:41 pm

adam wrote:

I must admit vintage hifi doesn't do much for me, I prefer some thing new, the same with cars, some go for old vintage cars and love them to bits, but I'd go for a new car because I feel its safer, better built, and more reliable.

Actually Adam, if you ever bother to take a good look at the insides of vintage, you will see that regarding build quality, they were mostly way ahead of the vast majority of modern cost saving products. Bigger and better quality transformers, bigger and better quality heat sinks, etc.

Take my word for it, the vast majority of modern gear won't make their 30th anniversary as the vintage of today did.

Quote:

The same goes for HiFi older vintage gear holds very little appeal, I like something new and modern looking, sound wise I don't really know I don't get to hear much vintage stuff, but I would say more modern gear is more about transparency and detail, where older gear may be softer and warmer in tone.

Adam, no offence, but you like glitz and purported High End looks. Looks do not play music, except to the vanity of the owner. Modern product typically lack many a usefil facility in the name of audio purity, simply proving that today's designers can't be bothered to investigate, work and improve, in most cases, anyway.

Thus, China is probably your Promised Land, Asians generally are mostly about glitz and little real substance. I have seen quite a few of them and I can tell you the vast majority really looks good, with excellent fit and finish, but inside, well, let's just say the fall far behind on what actually does the work you bought it for.

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Wed May 18, 2011 10:07 pm

dvv wrote:

Adam, no offence, but you like glitz and purported High End looks. Looks do not play music, except to the vanity of the owner. Modern product typically lack many a usefil facility in the name of audio purity, simply proving that today's designers can't be bothered to investigate, work and improve, in most cases, anyway.

Thus, China is probably your Promised Land, Asians generally are mostly about glitz and little real substance. I have seen quite a few of them and I can tell you the vast majority really looks good, with excellent fit and finish, but inside, well, let's just say the fall far behind on what actually does the work you bought it for.

Your right dvv, I think goods looks are vital, I know it the sounds that matters, but HiFi is a luxury and for what we pay I believe looks play a part in the pride of ownership, looks and packaging all add added value, I think ugly hifi just wont sell no matter how good it may sound so a balancing act is needed, but I don't like glitz I like minimalism that's why I really don't like Chinese styled gear, they are too bling for me, too many lights and buttons, I like a thick uncluttered facia and I see many now are doing this, sure they have a hefty price tag but are made on our side of the Atlantic.

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Thu May 19, 2011 12:48 am

i think dan regards his xindak very highly, and he lives in devon! i think the duke of edinburgh regards the chinese highly, he lives in london! my ca540p was made in china, my beer was made in china, and i live in la la land! jocolor

Join date: 2010-05-22 Trade: No Posts: 1247 Age: 30

I do love my modern xindak! And the local cider!

I've heard a few bits of vintAge gear in my time, a fair few of my mates are a lot older than me.

So if I was to choose I guess I would go for something like a linn sondek with an sme for some bouncy fun sounds, rotel tuner, levinson Cdp, EAR pre and a Radford power with some ESLs or magnas, solid state maybe a big old Rowland pre and power.

Oh I should be getting a Xindak valve integrated soon also, as my pre has 2 outputs, xlr and RCA and my dac has 3 one being ecc88 I thought I may swell give the tubes a whirl with the Amphions, I'll still keep the solid monos as I don't wanna run tubes all day long.

Subject: Re: is the old hifi ,better hifi? Thu May 19, 2011 6:39 am

hi dan, local cider and ambrosia creamed rice! you is sorted Shocked

have you tried that new stella artois cidre? its quite nice, not that i approve of drinking[hic] not sure which has caused more misery,drinking or thinking! i reckon the latter Razz

back to hiffy, i was looking for speakers. now have the dynaudio. game over for now Smile

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is the old hifi ,better hifi?

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